czech republic: data wrongly marked as ODbL compatible was Re: Hromadné importy & změna licence na Talk-cz

Pavel Machek pavel na ucw.cz #mff6460 31. 3. 2012 17:17

Hi!

právě jsem si všimnul, že nám v OSM Inspectoru [1] republika trochu "odčervenala". Zdá se, že zatím byly changesety s importy, které dělal pavel [2], označeny za čisté pouze v rámci OSM Inspectoru. LWG chystá v brzké době převod těchto changesetů na jiný účet, kde budou dále žít jako "licenčně čisté" [3]. Pavle, pokud máš k tomuto kroku nějaké konkrétní námitky, směřuj je tam nebo/a LWG; případně, kdybys chtěl připojit k seznamu nějaké další své changesety, které můžou žít v OSM i pod CT+ODbL, určitě budeme všichni rádi.

So lets start by saying that I don't like ODbL and I hate CT. Now, there's list of imports I did to OSM, with intention of marking them "OK to switch to CT+ODbL". Sorry, but you may not do that without my agreement. I believe I own copyright in most of those. There are three classes of data I uploaded to osm: a) Hand created data, most important paths in the woods. CT+ODbL, is okay for those. b) ODbL compatible - mass imports. I'd be willing to be convinced that ODbL is okay for those, as long data from a) are kept. CT is not. Those imports were lot of work, and saying "you have to update OSM every once in a while to be even able to vote about licensing" is double-plus impolite. c) ODbL incompatible mass imports. Obviously these need to be removed. I have no power to change this. Pavel

"Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" xificurk na gmail.com #mdc4511 31. 3. 2012 18:18

So lets start by saying that I don't like ODbL and I hate CT. Now, there's list of imports I did to OSM, with intention of marking them "OK to switch to CT+ODbL". Sorry, but you may not do that without my agreement. I believe I own copyright in most of those. There are three classes of data I uploaded to osm: a) Hand created data, most important paths in the woods. CT+ODbL, is okay for those. b) ODbL compatible - mass imports. I'd be willing to be convinced that ODbL is okay for those, as long data from a) are kept. CT is not. Those imports were lot of work, and saying "you have to update OSM every once in a while to be even able to vote about licensing" is double-plus impolite. c) ODbL incompatible mass imports. Obviously these need to be removed. I have no power to change this.

Pavel, I'm sorry, but I'm starting to loose my patience. It's the same story over and over again. You've already clearly stated, that you don't like license change and want to maximize the damage to OSM community, nothing new here. (The fact that you haven't responded for almost two months, but miraculously woke up a day before the announced license change is just a coincidence, right?) If you have any specific objections to the list of changesets that were marked ODbL/CT OK, please share with us. But the repeated vague (and completely irrelevant) statements about ODbL incompatible imports, handcrafted data etc. are getting really really old. For God's sake, I've already told you several times: WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THOSE! WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SPECIFIC SET OF CHANGESETS WITH BULK IMPORTS OF ODBL/CT COMPATIBLE DATA. I really don't know how to make this more clear. There is a list of your changesets that we want to keep after the license change: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quick_History_Service/Changeset_Lists#Pavel_imports_in_Czech_Republic If you don't agree with this, _please_, state the number of the changeset and the reason why it can't/shouldn't be kept after the license change. Or be quite. Thank you! Petr Morávek aka Xificurk

Pavel Machek wrote:

So lets start by saying that I don't like ODbL and I hate CT. Now, there's list of imports I did to OSM, with intention of marking them "OK to switch to CT+ODbL". Sorry, but you may not do that without my agreement. I believe I own copyright in most of those. There are three classes of data I uploaded to osm: a) Hand created data, most important paths in the woods. CT+ODbL, is okay for those. b) ODbL compatible - mass imports. I'd be willing to be convinced that ODbL is okay for those, as long data from a) are kept. CT is not. Those imports were lot of work, and saying "you have to update OSM every once in a while to be even able to vote about licensing" is double-plus impolite. c) ODbL incompatible mass imports. Obviously these need to be removed. I have no power to change this.

Pavel, I'm sorry, but I'm starting to loose my patience. It's the same story over and over again. You've already clearly stated, that you don't like license change and want to maximize the damage to OSM community, nothing new here. (The fact that you haven't responded for almost two months, but miraculously woke up a day before the announced license change is just a coincidence, right?) If you have any specific objections to the list of changesets that were marked ODbL/CT OK, please share with us. But the repeated vague (and completely irrelevant) statements about ODbL incompatible imports, handcrafted data etc. are getting really really old. For God's sake, I've already told you several times: WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THOSE! WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SPECIFIC SET OF CHANGESETS WITH BULK IMPORTS OF ODBL/CT COMPATIBLE DATA. I really don't know how to make this more clear. There is a list of your changesets that we want to keep after the license change: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quick_History_Service/Changeset_Lists#Pavel_imports_in_Czech_Republic If you don't agree with this, _please_, state the number of the changeset and the reason why it can't/shouldn't be kept after the license change. Or be quite. Thank you! Petr Morávek aka Xificurk

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Karel Volný kavol na seznam.cz #mc448a5 1. 4. 2012 0:00

I'm sorry, but I'm starting to loose my patience.

and after reading what do you refer to I've lost my patience with you:

You've already clearly stated, that you don't like license change and want to maximize the damage to OSM community, nothing new here.

I believe Pavel never said anything about maximising the damage to the _community_ (if ever anything about "maximising the damage") what do I remember Pavel saying, and I can refer to the "OSM Inspector a stav přijetí licence" talk-cz mailinglist thread, the closest thing to "maximising the damage" is just that he is not going to do someone else's work (he even *constructively* responded to some emails about what to do next, which is better than acting like dead, so you really hardly can speak about "maximising the damage") so I don't hesitate to call you a liar with a copy to legal na osmf so that they know how the "discussion" and "cooperation" looks like now you can ostracise me as I've learned already that calling someone a liar is considered unforgivable, while twisting the words that white looks black is okay time to move to FOSM, I guess ... K.

"Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" xificurk na gmail.com #m3c0762 1. 4. 2012 0:55

Hi,

what do I remember Pavel saying, and I can refer to the "OSM Inspector a stav přijetí licence" talk-cz mailinglist thread, the closest thing to "maximising the damage" is just that he is not going to do someone else's work (he even *constructively* responded to some emails about what to do next, which is better than acting like dead, so you really hardly can speak about "maximising the damage")

He was never asked to do someone else's work (regarding the license change), the work of tracking down the bulk import changesets was done by hanoj... All that was asked of Pavel was to formally agree that the list of changesets contains "clean" data.

so I don't hesitate to call you a liar

Yep, I'm terrible liar with links to talk-cz archive... [1] Reaction to Frederik's suggestion regarding the overrides:

You have four options: 1. Ideally, pavel would agree that these changesets come from a free source and are not affected by his general rejection of the Contributor Terms...[shortened]
I don't like the license change, nor the new contributor terms and so I don't want to make license change easy.

[2] Older discussion (in Czech, sorry) about license change, where Pavel was asked essentially the same question and translation of the end of his reaction:

Relicensing the import and keeping the original data does not make sense, sorry. By that I would cause that most of the users would remain on osm.org and I could work in peace on fosm.org... alone. Which is not quite what I want. So far I have a feeling it would be best not to change the license to OdBL.

I really don't know what other interpretation there can be, than "maximising the damage" to OSM, so that more users would get upset and convert to FOSM. Best regards, Petr Morávek aka Xificurk [1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-cz/2011-December/006966.html [2] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-cz/2011-July/006635.html PS: I'm sorry for pouring more oil into the flames, but I just had to make my case... Anyone interested in the real facts can go through mailing list archives and find out for himself, but I would like to stop with this here in talk-cz (and legal). So, don't expect me to react any more in this thread, _unless_ Pavel comes with specific claims.

Hi, Karel Volný wrote:

what do I remember Pavel saying, and I can refer to the "OSM Inspector a stav přijetí licence" talk-cz mailinglist thread, the closest thing to "maximising the damage" is just that he is not going to do someone else's work (he even *constructively* responded to some emails about what to do next, which is better than acting like dead, so you really hardly can speak about "maximising the damage")

He was never asked to do someone else's work (regarding the license change), the work of tracking down the bulk import changesets was done by hanoj... All that was asked of Pavel was to formally agree that the list of changesets contains "clean" data.

so I don't hesitate to call you a liar

Yep, I'm terrible liar with links to talk-cz archive... [1] Reaction to Frederik's suggestion regarding the overrides:

You have four options: 1. Ideally, pavel would agree that these changesets come from a free source and are not affected by his general rejection of the Contributor Terms...[shortened]
I don't like the license change, nor the new contributor terms and so I don't want to make license change easy.

[2] Older discussion (in Czech, sorry) about license change, where Pavel was asked essentially the same question and translation of the end of his reaction:

Relicensing the import and keeping the original data does not make sense, sorry. By that I would cause that most of the users would remain on osm.org and I could work in peace on fosm.org... alone. Which is not quite what I want. So far I have a feeling it would be best not to change the license to OdBL.

I really don't know what other interpretation there can be, than "maximising the damage" to OSM, so that more users would get upset and convert to FOSM. Best regards, Petr Morávek aka Xificurk [1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-cz/2011-December/006966.html [2] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-cz/2011-July/006635.html PS: I'm sorry for pouring more oil into the flames, but I just had to make my case... Anyone interested in the real facts can go through mailing list archives and find out for himself, but I would like to stop with this here in talk-cz (and legal). So, don't expect me to react any more in this thread, _unless_ Pavel comes with specific claims.

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Pavel Machek pavel na ucw.cz #m381a4f 2. 4. 2012 13:23

Hi! So lets start by saying that I don't like ODbL and I hate CT. There are three classes of data I uploaded to osm: a) Hand created data, most important paths in the woods. CT+ODbL, is okay for those. b) ODbL compatible - mass imports. CT+ODbL is okay for those, provided data from a) are kept. Richard convinced me that CT is not meant to be evil, and I can live with that. c) ODbL incompatible mass imports. Obviously these need to be removed. I have no power to change this. Mass imports were cities from wikipedia (place=*) and railway stations from around http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/188101 187327 I hope this helps, and I'd like to see some reply, thanks, Pavel

"Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" xificurk na gmail.com #m170531 2. 4. 2012 14:05

Hi! So lets start by saying that I don't like ODbL and I hate CT. There are three classes of data I uploaded to osm: a) Hand created data, most important paths in the woods. CT+ODbL, is okay for those. b) ODbL compatible - mass imports. CT+ODbL is okay for those, provided data from a) are kept. Richard convinced me that CT is not meant to be evil, and I can live with that. c) ODbL incompatible mass imports. Obviously these need to be removed. I have no power to change this. Mass imports were cities from wikipedia (place=*) and railway stations from around http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/188101 187327 I hope this helps, and I'd like to see some reply, thanks, Pavel

Hi, I admit that I'm pretty confused right now... Are you saying that you've changed your mind and are willing to agree to ODbL+CT, except for the changesets containing imports of incompatible data? That would be really great! If this is that case, I personally volunteer to help track down your changesets containing the incompatible imports. The only two are the wikipedia imports of places and railway stations, is this correct? Best regards, Petr Morávek aka Xificurk PS: I've added to CC rebuild@ as well, just to let the guys there know that there could be a last-minute request for keeping most of the data from Pavel. Sorry, to all that will get this mail multiple times.

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Pavel Machek pavel na ucw.cz #mfbb670 2. 4. 2012 14:18

Hi! So lets start by saying that I don't like ODbL and I hate CT. There are three classes of data I uploaded to osm: a) Hand created data, most important paths in the woods. CT+ODbL, is okay for those. b) ODbL compatible - mass imports. CT+ODbL is okay for those, provided data from a) are kept. Richard convinced me that CT is not meant to be evil, and I can live with that. c) ODbL incompatible mass imports. Obviously these need to be removed. I have no power to change this. Mass imports were cities from wikipedia (place=*) and railway stations from around http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/188101 187327 I hope this helps, and I'd like to see some reply, thanks, Pavel
Hi, I admit that I'm pretty confused right now... Are you saying that you've changed your mind and are willing to agree to ODbL+CT, except for the changesets containing imports of incompatible data? That would be really great!

Yes.

If this is that case, I personally volunteer to help track down your changesets containing the incompatible imports.

Thanks!

The only two are the wikipedia imports of places and railway stations, is this correct?

I think so. Pavel

"Petr Morávek [Xificurk]" xificurk na gmail.com #mb36ee6 2. 4. 2012 23:38

If this is that case, I personally volunteer to help track down your changesets containing the incompatible imports.
Thanks!
The only two are the wikipedia imports of places and railway stations, is this correct?
I think so. Pavel

Hello, I went through Pavel's changesets and I think I've found all the tainted data. Here is what I did: 1) I went through Pavel's changesets (except the big ones already identified as ODbL compatible imports). 2) Counted the number of created or modified nodes that had tags place=* or railway=station,halt,tram_stop. This gave me 17 changesets that have at least 10 such nodes. 3) Then I checked them manually and identified the mass imports. Pavel's tainted changesets incompatible with ODbL+CT: 720911, 720263, 187327, 189654, 188101, 197352, 593595 Special case of changeset 473203: contains mostly import of forests, but also 12 place nodes from wikipedia,etc., only 3 of them (277999916, 277999934, 277999939) are still in the database. I would suggest we keep this changeset and remove only those 3 offending nodes when the database comes from read-only mode. In the process I've found another changeset with import of places from wikipedia,geonames,etc. performed by Bilbo. This should be marked for removal as well: 312633 I would like to thank Pavel for his decision to allow the relicensing of his work and sincerely apologize for my harsh words in my initial reply. Best regards, Petr Morávek aka Xificurk

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